You should ask Substack. They’re probably trying to educate the cabal of genocidal, child murdering, rapist, war criminal, Israeli ziotards on what morality is…🤷♂️
You are not understanding the NYT format correctly. They published an OPINION piece, expressing the opinion of the author. The article you wrote implies that the editorial staff or a reporter speaking on behalf of the NYT referred to it as a genocide. That is not what happened. NYT are still in denial.
He’s using ethnic cleansing and genocide interchangeably. That’s not how it works. When you lose a war you lose infrastructure and territory and the other group doesn’t. It’s very simple. This kind of analysis makes it so nothing means anything, it’s incompatible buzzwords strung together not ‘research’ or ‘journalism’
No im making claims reinforcing what the article is saying . They are not different.
If you don’t believe in laws of warfare or international law, and don’t think they apply at all, then the best thing is to just be honest about rather than claiming you are most moral army in the world.
Again with the dehumanisation and racism of the Palestinian people, are they all saints , no, but to say you can’t believe a single word they say because they are radicalised and are in slums is ridiculous.
Of course many are radicalised , but many are not . But you would like to discount the entire human experience of the Palestinians.
You didn’t bring up facts on the ground , only your opinion on how worthless any argument that what is happening is a genocide because it’s from a legal scholar in a faculty .
Debate the facts and merits of the case, not dismiss it because he doesn’t fulfill your arbitrary criteria.
Are you saying with regards with agriculture, that IDF (and settlers in the West Bank) have not destroyed any agriculture, and if it’s not over 90% then what is left ?
20000 kids under 18 killed and this is one of the safest conflicts?
You basically saying again that your War justifies any and every action committed.
Again your last statement is all a bunch of gobbledygook. Of course occupied people have the right to self defence.
And civilians have the right not to be ethically cleansed and genocided. You are not the good guys in this fight, you are a tool of Empire. A settler colonial apartheid and genocidal state.
Except you’re forgetting that Palestine is not a member state. Argument invalid. I have at no point dehumanized anyone and that’s offensive because I live there and love those people and I want them to stop making fools of themselves.
The article is making a disingenuous claim it’s a gotcha headline. Then when I point this out, you say that all I can talk about is genocide.
You’re making normative arguments and you’re trying to say that they’re substantive but they’re all based on narratives. The job of academia to collect narratives not buy into them, and if you desire peace, then you must act the same.
Israel may be the most moral army to exist, but it’s still war. My criticism is they need to put their people more at risk in order to actually go under the tunnels, but it’s not actually incumbent upon them to do so because of the situation in a lawless territory.
If you want to quote International law, you would have to yield to the Oslo accords which Palestine is subject to . That means no armed conflict with Israel and the agreement supersedes any ‘global’ idea. Otherwise you’re just getting played by the Palestine incorporated
The existence of tunnels does not make civilians lawful targets. You are correct that the IDF does not have to enter the tunnels and can use other means to destroy them. That fact, however, doesn't make blowing up every building over a tunnel legal either. The IDF could seal off the tunnels. They could flood the tunnels, they could take any number of measures to destroy the tunnels that don't involve leveling the entire area. This is not about tunnels. It is about forcibly evicting the entire civilian population and destroying their ability to return. That is ethnic cleansing and is a war crime.
This reeks of “they could have shot the guy in the arm” during a sudden self defense situation. Watching too many action movies. Those things do a lot more than you think they do and are a lot harder to do. You might as well ask every Palestinian to just walk out into machine gun fire and see how many make it - that would accelerate peace. They don’t want peace as an ultimate goal. If it comes down to your family lives for just the chance to save a few random strangers who may also want to kill you it’s an easy calculation.
War crime term is meaningless when used this way - it’s standard war. By the laws of war you can’t build military infrastructure shielded by civilian, you also can’t start wars without the ability to shelter civilians. Hamas does both of these wrong so any action they take is prior disqualified and any action against them gains wider tolerance not narrower. Despite these ongoing practices there’s no civilian outcry on the Palestinian side, they didn’t take up arms against their rebel government or demand elections. They didn’t rescue or help rescue hostages ( if there are examples then I’m here for it). They clearly value fighters or the general population; similarly Hamas owns their houses, gets first pick of the food, medicine, and technology + determines what is and isn’t built and how. In Israel the authorities have to respond to elections so they aren’t going to risk their voters lives. Two opposite places
No you can’t. That however doesn’t relieve the Israelis of any duties themselves. There were no military forces around the church they bombed last week. That Church is huge and has been there for 1200 years. There is no way that was a mistake. Since people like you refuse to hold Israel to any standard of behavior, they did that and a lot things like shooting people standing in line for food on the basis of totally unexplained and undefined “threats to our forces “ without any accountability. I am sorry but the endless claims of “threats” and unseen gunman has long past all credulity. I am someone who has long supported Israel and still do. As someone who is a trained lawyer in the law of armed conflict and who has been to war, even I can no longer find their claims credible and have to believe my lying eyes.
There’s no word salad, you just can’t comprehend anything that disturbs your bias. If I say something that’s very obvious and easy to understand, but you don’t understand it because you are actively resisting even if it’s clear and true. So then I have to walk you down the path hold your hand so that I can explain the same thing several different ways and keep you on track. You were bad faith to begin with because you don’t want to come to an understanding so we have to keep repeating the drill. My original post is long forgotten at this point, but that’s the nature of your stance - continuous motte and bailey, buzzwords, red herrings all in the service of one ideology vs the interests of living people. Very convenient, very modern lib
Palestine is a big cash cow and a politically useful to club ones enemies with. Trump cut their payments and all hell broke loose for a bit and then major progress occurred. Biden reinstated it and increased it. Congress has been trying to dismantle it a long time. This is all obvious.
You can’t make legal claims and then just completely discard any of the legal documents and principles in play when it becomes inconvenient. It’s cute that you say things like hasbara that you learned last year. It’s activist dogma.
You’re saying dehumanize, but I’m saying humanize. Humanization means people are capable of doing the wrong thing and making bad decisions. This also means that they have to suffer the consequences of their mistakes. Those they transgress against are not to blame for it.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at your incredulousness.
Palestine has to a member state … for what exactly ? To not be genocided against ?
Is Palestine a big cash cow … possibly.
But why ignore the biggest cash cow … the European settler colonial state in the Middle East. The billions in aid and weaponry, diplomatic and military support that US and European states provide, per capita is without historical precedent.
It is you that is making claims that any of the legal arguments are invalid, without specifying why they are invalid. You just don’t want them to apply to you.
Hasbara, chutzpah, Sabra etc … yes these were never in an anyone’s lexicon until last year.
If that is your definition of humanisation , then that is some pretty dark stuff there
What’s remarkable is there is no accountability or consequences when Israel makes mistake after mistake after mistake.
You only want other people to suffer , even for the smallest mistake, in the most extreme and heinous and heartless way possible. Only others. Never yourself . Why , because you are the chosen people. Everything is justified , Amalek is justified, yet it still not genocide because your personal arbitrary opinion
Israel is not a European settler colonial estate. Don’t be fake
Palestine is a colonial project based on Jordan not taking it and holding after the war. Palestine had gotten economic aid at a greater level and its allegedly donor state and orgs, not citizens or their own money. Military aid is domestic spending in the west. Per capita cost for a jet - yeah okay that’s poor reasoning. People aren’t being attacked don’t require it
Why would Israel bear consequences that it already hasn’t born? It’s war. Their image is constantly attacked for doing the impossible. I’m saying that you’re not applying the law to Palestine and that Palestine must be a state in order to do some of the things that you say they can do. It’s non state actors engaging in violence against a state. If you’re humanizing Palestinians, and they have the right to lose war and accept the terms. They have a right to overthrow their government. They could’ve done so on day one. They could’ve given back the hostages, but they didn’t help. Who is “they?” The government of Palestine is the Palestinian Authority which Hamas has usurped in Gaza. They do not believe their citizens have any right of self-defense; Hamas says so but coerce this who worn aid their violence. It’s a rogue territory. It’s not dark, it’s fair. Humanity has great capacity for malevolence and mistakes and the Palestine blob amplifies it.
I’m an American. You’re crashing out on these things and people you know nothing about; the method is to label and pile on buzzwords and some are arbitrarily good while others bad regardless of truth. An observer could permissibly point out the inconsistency, but that’s not being permitted by something resembling a traumatized adult-child. That’s ideology. Ideology that isn’t conducive to justice, or truth or growth - so what are you owed?
It appears you do not understand the concept of chosen and the spirit of Amalek. You can’t cite them if you don’t understand them and you’re not a person of faith either. That just wouldn’t be appropriate even in Palestine
You are correct. They are two different terms with different meanings. Yes, that Israel is doing is ethnic cleansing not genocide. Ethnic cleansing is still a crime against humanity. Losing a war does not allow the winning side to forcibly exile entire populations nor does winning a war suddenly make private property and civilian infrastructure legitimate targets.
You are admitting that the war in Gaza is a reprisal for October 7. While reprisals are legal, they are only legal under certain conditions.
They must be a response to a prior violation of the laws of war by the enemy.
They must be proportionate to the initial violation.
They must be directed only at combatants and military objectives.
Civilians, civilian objects, and persons or objects protected by the Geneva Conventions are never permissible targets of reprisal.
A warning must be issued to the enemy prior to resorting to reprisals.
This has gone on for going on three years now and is well past being a proportionate response. More importantly, even a reprisal can't target civilians and civilian property, which is all Israel is doing at this point.
It’s in the same passage. You can have ethnic cleansing and you can have genocide. You can have both. He says because you have one then you have both by default because of an event he didn’t experience but is an ‘academic’ so ‘trust me bro’. It’s a narrative disguised as science
You don’t care about international law anyway, why are you so hung up on being called genocidal?
Personally I think it’s because it doesn’t allow you to play the eternal victim. Just own it.
Anyways , to discredit your point, here in this small excerpt from the article, you will see there is no interchangeability …. But there is overlap.
He also documented that the Israeli ethnic cleansing plan is similar to the way many historical genocides have started, including in Namibia, the Armenian genocide, and the Nazi Holocaust. As he wrote, “Some might describe this campaign as ethnic cleansing, not genocide. But there is a link between the crimes. When an ethnic group has nowhere to go and is constantly displaced from one so-called safe zone to another, relentlessly bombed and starved, ethnic cleansing can morph into genocide. This was the case in several well-known genocides of the 20th century, such as that of the Herero and Nama in German South West Africa, now Namibia, that began in 1904; the Armenians in World War I; and, indeed, even in the Holocaust, which began with the German attempt to expel the Jews and ended up with their murder.”
“You don’t care about international law” yeah okay. It doesn’t matter if we care it matters if Israel is in Palestinians care between each other. They have bilateral agreements. Palestinians are never penalized by it. So therefore it’s not ‘law’ but one sided. The pint is justice. Where am I a victim? Who are you even speaking to?
You just proved my point. Everything is the same, nothing means anything. “This is just like” when they aren’t alike. It’s a war in a limited territory that the people living in it never fully controlled or became a state and there was no state preceding it. Multiple states have opted out of the area giving them autonomy and they never realized it but to organize around external violence. The examples are thin air, opinions that anyone could refute easily.
I have not proved your point, because your point doesn’t make sense.
The thing is, you haven’t refuted anything . When people make analogies, or comparisons , you immediately discount it because they are not exactly the same.
The thing is, yes , not all genocides are the same, but they have similar themes. You just keeping hammering this irrelevant point , to discount the mountains of evidence.
If you actually looked at the legal definition of genocide , and not what you think genocide is, then perhaps you might begin to understand what Mr Bartov is saying.
The reason why I talk about you playing the eternal victim, is because you think that genocide is only ever applicable/relevant in relation to the Second World War, and your cognitive dissonance will not allow to comprehend that Israel is committing some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
I have not proved your point, because your point doesn’t make sense.
The thing is, you haven’t refuted anything . When people make analogies, or comparisons , you immediately discount it because they are not exactly the same.
The thing is, yes , not all genocides are the same, but they have similar themes. You just keeping hammering this irrelevant point , to discount the mountains of evidence.
If you actually looked at the legal definition of genocide , and not what you think genocide is, then perhaps you might begin to understand what Mr Bartov is saying.
The reason why I talk about you playing the eternal victim, is because you think that genocide is only ever applicable/relevant in relation to the Second World War, and your cognitive dissonance will not allow to comprehend that Israel is committing some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
Zionist family, IDF soldier even, admitting genocide, and on the op-ed pages of the New York Slimes. Mr. Dissident, you may have fewer of the Zionist flies dropping in to comment on this one.
And, per the one other commenter, yeah, who kidnapped the NYT op-ed board?
It may be trivial, but I spent years as a bread baker and I was particularly devastated to learn that Gazan bakeries were also prime targets of the IOF for destruction. Bakeries are as much a part of social infrastructure as schools, mosques, and churches, and renewing them will be difficult.
Isn’t it so funny that no matter the time period, no matter the lessons we learn from history, Jewish people are a seemingly fair target for your hatred?
Every century there seems to be a new justification. They’re too powerful, they’re too weak, they’re too white, they’re not white enough, they’re greedy, they’re poor, they’re colonizers, they’re refugees, they’re blood drinkers. They’re committing genocide! They’re practicing apartheid. They’re bombing hospitals. They’re baking Christian blood into their matzah, they killed Christ, and they’re causing the Black Plague. Somehow, there’s never a shortage of supply of people hating Jewish people because they deserve it.
In our modern age of civil rights, with Gaza being destroyed, it’s fine to openly hate Jewish people again. Sorry not Jewish people, just Zionists. THIS TIME it’s warranted. This time it’s righteous. This time, your hatred is human rights activism.
Or…Israel is committing mass murder on a genocide scale, starving the population and then shooting them when they go to designated aid/safe zones. These poor people have to dodge bullets just to feed the children Israel hasn’t killed yet. I can’t speak to why scumbags hate Jewish people because I personally don’t.
However, I do hate every member of the Likud party and all the supporting parties that keep BN’s government in charge. They are racist, murderous scumbags, full stop. So they can miss all of us with the ziotard reasoning and constant bringing up of the past. This time Israel is the perpetrator and the whole world is finally seeing it.
Incredible report. Thank you. Growing up I knew the writer of “Screams Without Words” Jeffrey Gettleman due to a close family connection. We are so ashamed of him for being a hired scribe for the genocide. I haven’t spoken with him and don’t know what I’d even say, or if I’d be able to restrain my rage. I also have family members who read the NYT daily and it has been especially heart-breaking listening to them parrot the lies and justifications like robots. These are intelligent people, utterly lost to this hypnosis of phony authority. What would it take for more people to begin to see the NYT for what it is, a mouthpiece of malignant western power, and apologist for murder, rape, genocide and every imagineable crime against humanity?
He deserves no credit for *finally* admitting what every moral and honest person has recognised since the early months of the genocide. He says “this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could…”, he resisted until it got to the point where it’s impossible to deny. Like i said, no credit.
19 months late on genocide, 67 years late on Israel’s original sin. Fuck The NY Times.
Yes I’m not sure why they are even discussed any longer.
Original sin of energy existing? Fulfilling the League if Nations mandate, in the wake of the extermination camps?
I'm not sure why I was sent by Substack to a cabal of Jihadi Death Cult fan boys.
You should ask Substack. They’re probably trying to educate the cabal of genocidal, child murdering, rapist, war criminal, Israeli ziotards on what morality is…🤷♂️
You are not understanding the NYT format correctly. They published an OPINION piece, expressing the opinion of the author. The article you wrote implies that the editorial staff or a reporter speaking on behalf of the NYT referred to it as a genocide. That is not what happened. NYT are still in denial.
Indeed but it’s still a big deal this was allowed in. We need to wedge into these cracks and get in.
He’s using ethnic cleansing and genocide interchangeably. That’s not how it works. When you lose a war you lose infrastructure and territory and the other group doesn’t. It’s very simple. This kind of analysis makes it so nothing means anything, it’s incompatible buzzwords strung together not ‘research’ or ‘journalism’
No im making claims reinforcing what the article is saying . They are not different.
If you don’t believe in laws of warfare or international law, and don’t think they apply at all, then the best thing is to just be honest about rather than claiming you are most moral army in the world.
Again with the dehumanisation and racism of the Palestinian people, are they all saints , no, but to say you can’t believe a single word they say because they are radicalised and are in slums is ridiculous.
Of course many are radicalised , but many are not . But you would like to discount the entire human experience of the Palestinians.
You didn’t bring up facts on the ground , only your opinion on how worthless any argument that what is happening is a genocide because it’s from a legal scholar in a faculty .
Debate the facts and merits of the case, not dismiss it because he doesn’t fulfill your arbitrary criteria.
Are you saying with regards with agriculture, that IDF (and settlers in the West Bank) have not destroyed any agriculture, and if it’s not over 90% then what is left ?
20000 kids under 18 killed and this is one of the safest conflicts?
You basically saying again that your War justifies any and every action committed.
Again your last statement is all a bunch of gobbledygook. Of course occupied people have the right to self defence.
And civilians have the right not to be ethically cleansed and genocided. You are not the good guys in this fight, you are a tool of Empire. A settler colonial apartheid and genocidal state.
Except you’re forgetting that Palestine is not a member state. Argument invalid. I have at no point dehumanized anyone and that’s offensive because I live there and love those people and I want them to stop making fools of themselves.
The article is making a disingenuous claim it’s a gotcha headline. Then when I point this out, you say that all I can talk about is genocide.
You’re making normative arguments and you’re trying to say that they’re substantive but they’re all based on narratives. The job of academia to collect narratives not buy into them, and if you desire peace, then you must act the same.
Israel may be the most moral army to exist, but it’s still war. My criticism is they need to put their people more at risk in order to actually go under the tunnels, but it’s not actually incumbent upon them to do so because of the situation in a lawless territory.
If you want to quote International law, you would have to yield to the Oslo accords which Palestine is subject to . That means no armed conflict with Israel and the agreement supersedes any ‘global’ idea. Otherwise you’re just getting played by the Palestine incorporated
The existence of tunnels does not make civilians lawful targets. You are correct that the IDF does not have to enter the tunnels and can use other means to destroy them. That fact, however, doesn't make blowing up every building over a tunnel legal either. The IDF could seal off the tunnels. They could flood the tunnels, they could take any number of measures to destroy the tunnels that don't involve leveling the entire area. This is not about tunnels. It is about forcibly evicting the entire civilian population and destroying their ability to return. That is ethnic cleansing and is a war crime.
This reeks of “they could have shot the guy in the arm” during a sudden self defense situation. Watching too many action movies. Those things do a lot more than you think they do and are a lot harder to do. You might as well ask every Palestinian to just walk out into machine gun fire and see how many make it - that would accelerate peace. They don’t want peace as an ultimate goal. If it comes down to your family lives for just the chance to save a few random strangers who may also want to kill you it’s an easy calculation.
War crime term is meaningless when used this way - it’s standard war. By the laws of war you can’t build military infrastructure shielded by civilian, you also can’t start wars without the ability to shelter civilians. Hamas does both of these wrong so any action they take is prior disqualified and any action against them gains wider tolerance not narrower. Despite these ongoing practices there’s no civilian outcry on the Palestinian side, they didn’t take up arms against their rebel government or demand elections. They didn’t rescue or help rescue hostages ( if there are examples then I’m here for it). They clearly value fighters or the general population; similarly Hamas owns their houses, gets first pick of the food, medicine, and technology + determines what is and isn’t built and how. In Israel the authorities have to respond to elections so they aren’t going to risk their voters lives. Two opposite places
No you can’t. That however doesn’t relieve the Israelis of any duties themselves. There were no military forces around the church they bombed last week. That Church is huge and has been there for 1200 years. There is no way that was a mistake. Since people like you refuse to hold Israel to any standard of behavior, they did that and a lot things like shooting people standing in line for food on the basis of totally unexplained and undefined “threats to our forces “ without any accountability. I am sorry but the endless claims of “threats” and unseen gunman has long past all credulity. I am someone who has long supported Israel and still do. As someone who is a trained lawyer in the law of armed conflict and who has been to war, even I can no longer find their claims credible and have to believe my lying eyes.
Next you will say that every civilian death is a tragedy.
Member state is not legal requirement
The nature of (liberal) Zionism is to dehumanise the other.
Oslo accords … are you serious?
Palestine incorporated … haha
Great hasbara indeed.
It’s not a disingenuous claim. You haven’t proved otherwise.
You are great at word salad though.
Member states are a requirement in practice.
There’s no word salad, you just can’t comprehend anything that disturbs your bias. If I say something that’s very obvious and easy to understand, but you don’t understand it because you are actively resisting even if it’s clear and true. So then I have to walk you down the path hold your hand so that I can explain the same thing several different ways and keep you on track. You were bad faith to begin with because you don’t want to come to an understanding so we have to keep repeating the drill. My original post is long forgotten at this point, but that’s the nature of your stance - continuous motte and bailey, buzzwords, red herrings all in the service of one ideology vs the interests of living people. Very convenient, very modern lib
Palestine is a big cash cow and a politically useful to club ones enemies with. Trump cut their payments and all hell broke loose for a bit and then major progress occurred. Biden reinstated it and increased it. Congress has been trying to dismantle it a long time. This is all obvious.
You can’t make legal claims and then just completely discard any of the legal documents and principles in play when it becomes inconvenient. It’s cute that you say things like hasbara that you learned last year. It’s activist dogma.
You’re saying dehumanize, but I’m saying humanize. Humanization means people are capable of doing the wrong thing and making bad decisions. This also means that they have to suffer the consequences of their mistakes. Those they transgress against are not to blame for it.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at your incredulousness.
Palestine has to a member state … for what exactly ? To not be genocided against ?
Is Palestine a big cash cow … possibly.
But why ignore the biggest cash cow … the European settler colonial state in the Middle East. The billions in aid and weaponry, diplomatic and military support that US and European states provide, per capita is without historical precedent.
It is you that is making claims that any of the legal arguments are invalid, without specifying why they are invalid. You just don’t want them to apply to you.
Hasbara, chutzpah, Sabra etc … yes these were never in an anyone’s lexicon until last year.
If that is your definition of humanisation , then that is some pretty dark stuff there
What’s remarkable is there is no accountability or consequences when Israel makes mistake after mistake after mistake.
You only want other people to suffer , even for the smallest mistake, in the most extreme and heinous and heartless way possible. Only others. Never yourself . Why , because you are the chosen people. Everything is justified , Amalek is justified, yet it still not genocide because your personal arbitrary opinion
Incredulousness about what? Wrong word chosen?
Israel is not a European settler colonial estate. Don’t be fake
Palestine is a colonial project based on Jordan not taking it and holding after the war. Palestine had gotten economic aid at a greater level and its allegedly donor state and orgs, not citizens or their own money. Military aid is domestic spending in the west. Per capita cost for a jet - yeah okay that’s poor reasoning. People aren’t being attacked don’t require it
Why would Israel bear consequences that it already hasn’t born? It’s war. Their image is constantly attacked for doing the impossible. I’m saying that you’re not applying the law to Palestine and that Palestine must be a state in order to do some of the things that you say they can do. It’s non state actors engaging in violence against a state. If you’re humanizing Palestinians, and they have the right to lose war and accept the terms. They have a right to overthrow their government. They could’ve done so on day one. They could’ve given back the hostages, but they didn’t help. Who is “they?” The government of Palestine is the Palestinian Authority which Hamas has usurped in Gaza. They do not believe their citizens have any right of self-defense; Hamas says so but coerce this who worn aid their violence. It’s a rogue territory. It’s not dark, it’s fair. Humanity has great capacity for malevolence and mistakes and the Palestine blob amplifies it.
I’m an American. You’re crashing out on these things and people you know nothing about; the method is to label and pile on buzzwords and some are arbitrarily good while others bad regardless of truth. An observer could permissibly point out the inconsistency, but that’s not being permitted by something resembling a traumatized adult-child. That’s ideology. Ideology that isn’t conducive to justice, or truth or growth - so what are you owed?
It appears you do not understand the concept of chosen and the spirit of Amalek. You can’t cite them if you don’t understand them and you’re not a person of faith either. That just wouldn’t be appropriate even in Palestine
You are correct. They are two different terms with different meanings. Yes, that Israel is doing is ethnic cleansing not genocide. Ethnic cleansing is still a crime against humanity. Losing a war does not allow the winning side to forcibly exile entire populations nor does winning a war suddenly make private property and civilian infrastructure legitimate targets.
You are admitting that the war in Gaza is a reprisal for October 7. While reprisals are legal, they are only legal under certain conditions.
They must be a response to a prior violation of the laws of war by the enemy.
They must be proportionate to the initial violation.
They must be directed only at combatants and military objectives.
Civilians, civilian objects, and persons or objects protected by the Geneva Conventions are never permissible targets of reprisal.
A warning must be issued to the enemy prior to resorting to reprisals.
This has gone on for going on three years now and is well past being a proportionate response. More importantly, even a reprisal can't target civilians and civilian property, which is all Israel is doing at this point.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt it seems.
( and no, he is not using those words ‘interchangeably’)
It’s in the same passage. You can have ethnic cleansing and you can have genocide. You can have both. He says because you have one then you have both by default because of an event he didn’t experience but is an ‘academic’ so ‘trust me bro’. It’s a narrative disguised as science
No he doesn’t, you just made that up.
You don’t care about international law anyway, why are you so hung up on being called genocidal?
Personally I think it’s because it doesn’t allow you to play the eternal victim. Just own it.
Anyways , to discredit your point, here in this small excerpt from the article, you will see there is no interchangeability …. But there is overlap.
He also documented that the Israeli ethnic cleansing plan is similar to the way many historical genocides have started, including in Namibia, the Armenian genocide, and the Nazi Holocaust. As he wrote, “Some might describe this campaign as ethnic cleansing, not genocide. But there is a link between the crimes. When an ethnic group has nowhere to go and is constantly displaced from one so-called safe zone to another, relentlessly bombed and starved, ethnic cleansing can morph into genocide. This was the case in several well-known genocides of the 20th century, such as that of the Herero and Nama in German South West Africa, now Namibia, that began in 1904; the Armenians in World War I; and, indeed, even in the Holocaust, which began with the German attempt to expel the Jews and ended up with their murder.”
“You don’t care about international law” yeah okay. It doesn’t matter if we care it matters if Israel is in Palestinians care between each other. They have bilateral agreements. Palestinians are never penalized by it. So therefore it’s not ‘law’ but one sided. The pint is justice. Where am I a victim? Who are you even speaking to?
You just proved my point. Everything is the same, nothing means anything. “This is just like” when they aren’t alike. It’s a war in a limited territory that the people living in it never fully controlled or became a state and there was no state preceding it. Multiple states have opted out of the area giving them autonomy and they never realized it but to organize around external violence. The examples are thin air, opinions that anyone could refute easily.
I have not proved your point, because your point doesn’t make sense.
The thing is, you haven’t refuted anything . When people make analogies, or comparisons , you immediately discount it because they are not exactly the same.
The thing is, yes , not all genocides are the same, but they have similar themes. You just keeping hammering this irrelevant point , to discount the mountains of evidence.
If you actually looked at the legal definition of genocide , and not what you think genocide is, then perhaps you might begin to understand what Mr Bartov is saying.
The reason why I talk about you playing the eternal victim, is because you think that genocide is only ever applicable/relevant in relation to the Second World War, and your cognitive dissonance will not allow to comprehend that Israel is committing some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
There’s no analogy if it’s a ‘genocide’
He’s just sharing a goofy opinion that he gets paid to produce
The legal definition is being looked at that’s why they are different things. It’s not an opinion’s
At what point do I think genocide is only relevant to World War II ? That’s my point - it’s not the defining criteria of a genocide
I have not proved your point, because your point doesn’t make sense.
The thing is, you haven’t refuted anything . When people make analogies, or comparisons , you immediately discount it because they are not exactly the same.
The thing is, yes , not all genocides are the same, but they have similar themes. You just keeping hammering this irrelevant point , to discount the mountains of evidence.
If you actually looked at the legal definition of genocide , and not what you think genocide is, then perhaps you might begin to understand what Mr Bartov is saying.
The reason why I talk about you playing the eternal victim, is because you think that genocide is only ever applicable/relevant in relation to the Second World War, and your cognitive dissonance will not allow to comprehend that Israel is committing some of the most heinous crimes against humanity.
Zionist family, IDF soldier even, admitting genocide, and on the op-ed pages of the New York Slimes. Mr. Dissident, you may have fewer of the Zionist flies dropping in to comment on this one.
And, per the one other commenter, yeah, who kidnapped the NYT op-ed board?
It may be trivial, but I spent years as a bread baker and I was particularly devastated to learn that Gazan bakeries were also prime targets of the IOF for destruction. Bakeries are as much a part of social infrastructure as schools, mosques, and churches, and renewing them will be difficult.
Isn’t it so funny that no matter the time period, no matter the lessons we learn from history, Jewish people are a seemingly fair target for your hatred?
Every century there seems to be a new justification. They’re too powerful, they’re too weak, they’re too white, they’re not white enough, they’re greedy, they’re poor, they’re colonizers, they’re refugees, they’re blood drinkers. They’re committing genocide! They’re practicing apartheid. They’re bombing hospitals. They’re baking Christian blood into their matzah, they killed Christ, and they’re causing the Black Plague. Somehow, there’s never a shortage of supply of people hating Jewish people because they deserve it.
In our modern age of civil rights, with Gaza being destroyed, it’s fine to openly hate Jewish people again. Sorry not Jewish people, just Zionists. THIS TIME it’s warranted. This time it’s righteous. This time, your hatred is human rights activism.
Or…Israel is committing mass murder on a genocide scale, starving the population and then shooting them when they go to designated aid/safe zones. These poor people have to dodge bullets just to feed the children Israel hasn’t killed yet. I can’t speak to why scumbags hate Jewish people because I personally don’t.
However, I do hate every member of the Likud party and all the supporting parties that keep BN’s government in charge. They are racist, murderous scumbags, full stop. So they can miss all of us with the ziotard reasoning and constant bringing up of the past. This time Israel is the perpetrator and the whole world is finally seeing it.
Wrong. The culprit is Hamas.
it’s ok; they quickly corrected course today, reporting that Palestinians trampled each other to death because Hamas.
Where is the Babylon Bee signature?
Incredible report. Thank you. Growing up I knew the writer of “Screams Without Words” Jeffrey Gettleman due to a close family connection. We are so ashamed of him for being a hired scribe for the genocide. I haven’t spoken with him and don’t know what I’d even say, or if I’d be able to restrain my rage. I also have family members who read the NYT daily and it has been especially heart-breaking listening to them parrot the lies and justifications like robots. These are intelligent people, utterly lost to this hypnosis of phony authority. What would it take for more people to begin to see the NYT for what it is, a mouthpiece of malignant western power, and apologist for murder, rape, genocide and every imagineable crime against humanity?
Serious authors avoid all mention of NYT.
He deserves no credit for *finally* admitting what every moral and honest person has recognised since the early months of the genocide. He says “this was a painful conclusion to reach, and one that I resisted as long as I could…”, he resisted until it got to the point where it’s impossible to deny. Like i said, no credit.
Not genocide. Weak circular arguments though. Points for that.
Ok now can a society move forward please?
Yes as soon as Miriam and Co get their wishes.
There is no genocide in Gaza. There’s a war against Hamas which THEY started.
Hamas is responsible for every casualty and all damage on both sides.
They and their puppet masters in Iran are the ones who aspire to commit genocide against the Jews of Israel and throughout the world.
It doesn’t seem to be working as the Palestinian population just keeps growing 🤷♂️